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Old 04-27-2014, 02:23 PM   #1
johkaz
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M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

I found this picture in one of my reference books, i think it is of a re-enactor with an M44 pea dot tunic and a green collar.



I like the look of this tunic, and i would like to change the Toys City one i have to add a green collar from another Toys City tunic. But it got me to wondering, does anyone have any more period photos of this being done?

I also have the following questions.

How low in rank would an SS soldier be, for this alteration to be allowed?
I also see that the tunic has some badges on it as well, i was wondering about these, since the Toys City pea dot tunic comes with a medal ribbon on the first of the four front buttons.
And would a Hohenstaufen cuff title be allowed on the tunic?

I have searched the forum, and found some information about the changes to the tunic. But from what i have found i believe that it is mainly a private tailored item. So before i start cutting up my tunics, i thought that i would ask about it here first.

Thanks.

Gary
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Old 04-27-2014, 07:03 PM   #2
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar

hello,
I don't have a picture but I can tell you that is black under shirt collars is over top of the collars of his M44 tunic..
kind regards,
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:01 PM   #3
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Quite often Waffen SS officers had their own tunics made from zeltbahns, these varied in style; in this case it would appear that the jacket has been made using the bottle green collar from an M38 jacket, this camouflaged jacket is also of the M38 pattern using plain tree camouflage, more often the jacket would be without any markings save for the sleeve eagle or the camouflaged type rank markings or just the shoulder boards collar patches and honours on the sleeve would be very rare.
German forces learnt very quickly to hide rank from snipers things like the honour titles on sleeves gave away the division medals was frowned upon again this gave away rank or the fact that that particular soldier had been decorated and make a better target for a sniper the idea is mirrored by modern armies, I have also seen pictures showing officers caring K98 rifles wearing steel helmets thus looking more like an enlisted man, the idea of the camouflaged uniform was to wear it over the wool uniform this way when required the collar could be easily pulled over the top of the camouflaged uniform or hidden very quickly.
Black as a collar for Waffen SS was not used
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Old 04-27-2014, 11:34 PM   #4
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Gary,
Nice find! I dont think the picture is of a reenactor. As previously mentioned, the camo type is plain tree and not pea dot. DML did a tunic in plain tree but the collar was also done in camo. Interestingly enough, DML also did a tunic in splinter but used a bottle green collar on it.

I dont believe that this is a picture of someone wearing a collarless jacket with a shirt collar from beneath worn over the top. Maybe if that were a smock but that is clearly not a smock.

As for how low a rank for someone to have a custom tunic, it just depends. There are photos of highly decorated individuals, high ranking and common soldiers all with custom tunics. There are more photos of those who were decorated and higher in rank but I think thats only because it was more probable that they would be photographed more often than your common private. I think the same would apply to awards, it just depends. There are plenty of photos showing guys with and without awards and various types of rank insignia. As far as the cuff title you speak of, Im not sure
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:10 AM   #5
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Just my thoughts on the subject ...

The quality of the photo (resolution, grain, color depth, etc) speaks to it being a reenactor. That being said, There are photos of officers with full ensignia/awards, etc. on their camo tunics. I think this mode of wear would be for "walking out" in a behind the lines area close to their command.

As far as the green collar on the camo tunic goes - why would anyone bother? The green collar went away soon after the war started for field uniforms, so it wouldn't be "fashionable" to add it to a tailor made camo uniform.
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:32 AM   #6
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Interesting!
I have no idea if a re-enactor or real. As for rank, as Alfonso mentioned, highly decorated individuals would get flexibility. If this is a real soldier and if the close combat badge this guy is wearing, is gold, he could wear a PINK collar and no one would tell him a thing!
Interesting combination for this Major(?), he is wearing General Assault Badge, so he is not panzer, panzer grenadier, recon... could be pioneer, but the shoulder boards don't look black... But Close Combat/General Assault. IC 1st Class and wound badge(silver?) makes him highly decorated.
Maybe this custom tunic has a regular SS collar, the color is within range. Not necessarily a dark green early war collar. And of course he is 3d SS with death head collar tabs on both collars.
Let us know if you find out more info...
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:08 AM   #7
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,
Many thanks to everyone for all of the help, and to be honest i am almost suffering from information overload. As you have all been so helpful with the replies. To try to help further with the picture that i took as a scan, the book details are below.

Title: Waffen SS Camoflage Uniforms & Post War Derivatives
Author: Daniel Peterson
Publisher: Europa Militaria

thetrainman41

I have two further pictures of the original one, and one of them contains that text that was alongside the picture in the book. My apologies for not including it before, but i did not realise how important it would be.





rivetcounter

The text next to the picture backs up what you have said, about the tunic being made from a zeltbahn, with a seperate green collar sewn on to the tunic. Apparently the material print is called Platanenmuster. Which to be honest means nothing to me as, i have a very limited knowledge of the Waffen SS camo patterns. Apart from trying to match up the 1/6th colours and patterns from this page i found.

http://www.lssah.com/camoflage.htm

I can also now understand what you mean about the lack of identification or rank, on the tunic in the field. Because i can only assume that if you did wear some thing like that in battle, it would be the equivalent of wearing a sign 'shoot me'. I also like your idea of the camo tunic over the top of the other tunic, as i have just tried it off the figure. And the collars sit very well over each other.

viaad

The picture is a modern one, with what looks like someone who is wearing the tunic for the photo. I don't know if the tunic is an authentic one or a replica, but as i said above. I seems to be a custom made tunic with a green collar.

Sourdoh

Yes you are correct as the picture is from a modern book, of what looks like a re-enactor wearing the tunic. And after reading all of these posts, i agree that the tunic would be better suited to a 'walking out' uniform, rather than a field one. With regards to the green collar, i am under the impression that it is seen as a sign of long service. I am willing to be corrected here, if i am wrong about this.

egonzinc

With regards to the awards that the person has on the uniform, that again is a steep learning curve for me. As it seems that there are quite a few possiblities, of what awards can go with each other.

Many thanks again.

Gary
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:06 PM   #8
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Platanenmuster simply means plain tree pattern, incidentally his cap is Oak leaf Eichenblattmuster
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Old 04-28-2014, 06:57 PM   #9
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Being Titenkopf, complicates things a bit as there is no rank on the collar. If he had the collar rank insignia he would have no need of the shoulder insignia.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:49 PM   #10
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by egonzinc View Post
Being Titenkopf, complicates things a bit as there is no rank on the collar. If he had the collar rank insignia he would have no need of the shoulder insignia.

True. There is also the option of the subdued sleeve rank insignia as well. Regardless, its a very cool picture that I hadnt seen previously.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:10 PM   #11
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

The picture is a tough one, what does the book cite as source of the photo? What is the mix of actual with reenactor photos?


As far as walking out, not seeing that. Camo was not a leave/liberty uniform. Although the current USA/USAF uni regs let you wear cammies out in public, disgraceful lol. Sorry conformed to Dept of Navy regs to long.


Based on the pic he is in the field or close to it.


There are a lot of exapmles of SS personel of all ranks wearing rank and decorations on camo tunics. Quick example page 252 of Beavers Camoflage Uniforms of the Waffen SS has 3 examples.


As far as the General Assault Badge I don't think it has a great deral of bearing on what arm he was sewrving it at the time of the pic. Could have started out in Arty, Supply, Signals and won it there and transferred to infantry if we are even agreeing he is infantry. Plenty of pics with Panzer and Assault Gun guys wearing infantry assault.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:28 PM   #12
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

I am familiar with the book and the picture , it is a recreated picture , author claims items in the book are original although some items in the book have been contested by folks on the Whermact awards forum , but the picture is not period , it is recreated .

As for the tunic being real , it could very well be real , why , who knows , German Officers had many custom items made during the war.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:03 AM   #13
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

According to my uboot vet Edgar they were very strict about what a man was allowed to wear when in public. He stated that when leaving the boat they had to go straight to the barracks and change from their duty outfits(uboot clothes) before going out of the barracks. He also stated that when he was sent to get an item for repairing the uboot he had to go to the barracks change out of his uboot clothes then go to the place where the item was then go back to the barracks and change back into his uboot clothes then back to the sub. He said it was a real pain in the butt. So I assume the rules applied to the other branches of the service. When a man went on leave they were issued new un-damaged clean uniforms
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:57 PM   #14
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

My comment about a "walking out" use of the uniform with full decorations was aimed more at a close-to-the-front situation where the officer might want to "show off" a little at an informal event or something, not as an official/regulation Walking Out uniform. Perhaps he might want to wear it that way at a medal presentation ceremony or unit parade.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:42 PM   #15
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Well we know for a fact that Heer and W-SS officers had custom made tunics made in which they would wear decorations with. Their are several examples in Beavers book. I suspect that this was only a option for field use and only regulation clothing would have been acceptable in public.

Im guessing most have seen the color Portrait pictures of a W-SS tanker in a custom blurred edge tunic posing with his Knights Cross. Im guessing because of the quality of the photo and how clean he is that it was take in germany while on leave or presentation of the award. So depending on what your rank was, command policy, and how bad ass you were (knights cross) you could get away with stuff that others may not have been necessary been able too.

I guess the only people who truly know would be the vets themselves but not a lot of them left and even then there can be a few holes in a 65 year old memory, especially on a topic of little significance to a individual.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:43 PM   #16
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

this is an old argument on the 1/6th boards , plenty of period camo tunics with nazi decor have turned up , both in real life and period pics , if you want some real info on the subject go to Wehrmacht awards and do a search , and ask , not belittling our knowledgeable group here , but thats what those guys do and they are very good at it , ask them .
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Old 04-30-2014, 08:32 AM   #17
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

Many thanks again for so much help.

hansalbin

I hope that the post from panzerwerk, has helped to answer some of your questions about the picture. As i was unsure of the source of it.

panzerwerk

Thanks for the detailed information about the picture and the tunic. As i was unsure where the picture had come from, and if the tunic is a replica or not. I also did a search on the Wehrmacht forum for the M44 tunic, but i could not find anything that related to this topic, so as you advise i will have to ask on the forum about this.

pzrwest

Many thanks for the insight into the Uboat crews and the uniforms. I always find the information you have very interesting, as we get a very good insight into the crews.

andy101506

This is a very good thought about the possible differences between field and public uniforms, and with this it does i think create a lot of possibilites for future kitbashes.

Gary
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:31 PM   #18
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerwerk View Post
this is an old argument on the 1/6th boards , plenty of period camo tunics with nazi decor have turned up , both in real life and period pics , if you want some real info on the subject go to Wehrmacht awards and do a search , and ask , not belittling our knowledgeable group here , but thats what those guys do and they are very good at it , ask them .
I have had a reply back from Gran Sasso, to a post i made on the Wehrmacht forum. And i have had the pictures below posted to the topic.





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Old 05-01-2014, 01:08 PM   #19
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

there was a period shot put up the other day with full regalia , let me see if i can find a link ..

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=735841

There are a lot of posts there , and it takes time to go through the miles of information , but there are some real jems on that board , including pics of surrendering Germans wearing tons of liebermuster .
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:12 PM   #20
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

I have a number of books covering Waffen SS panzer divisions and Waffen SS uniforms, the first picture showing the Gerfighter in pea dot is from “Camouflage Uniforms of the Waffen SS” by Michael. D. Beaver page 220 the second picture of the Oberscharführer is on page 231.
First picture was taken by the US intelligence after the war when America was researching German camouflage while you will find the odd picture showing collar patches, Honour titles on sleeves and also rank they are very rare probably 1 in 100 pictures or more, in 1944 uniforms were in short supply it’s possible that the owner was attached to Stabs or some other rear area work however it’s also possible that he may have been front line or the markings were added after the war it’s always best to reference period pictures.

Second picture this is more common with highly decorated troops, this picture is defiantly taken in a rear area the badges can quickly be removed when he goes to the front.

As For modern troops wearing camouflage whilst stepping out this has absolutely no bearing on what happened in 1944, the M44 was a drill/combat uniform this would never be used as a stepping out uniform the plain green wool uniform was used for this
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:18 PM   #21
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

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Old 05-01-2014, 04:06 PM   #22
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

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Old 05-01-2014, 04:13 PM   #23
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

First picture, these are two crew members of the Tiger Battalion SS101 in Normandy the picture is from the Michael Wittmann book also notice the officer wears Oakleaf trousers not peadot
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Old 05-01-2014, 04:21 PM   #24
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

there is also a pic of whitman himself floating around playing with a bunny in Peadot with collar insignia , I have seen many pics , it was not common , but it was not rare either especially amongst officers .
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:46 PM   #25
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

I know the picture it’s on page 288 “Michael Wittmann and the tank commanders of the Leibstandarte” JJF version, I have just looked at this picture and can categorically state there are no markings on the peadot uniform the only award he wears is the knights cross though this will no doubt have the Wittmann experts claiming he only ever wore black
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #26
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

he does have shoulder boards in that pic .

Link to series of Propaganda pics and bunny whitman

What I want to know is what happened to the bunny ???

http://alifrafikkhan.blogspot.com/20...-wittmann.html
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:19 PM   #27
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerwerk View Post
he does have shoulder boards in that pic .

Link to series of Propaganda pics and bunny whitman

What I want to know is what happened to the bunny ???

http://alifrafikkhan.blogspot.com/20...-wittmann.html
The bunny became a moviestar in Monty Python and the holy grail
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:22 PM   #28
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

I think he became Hasenfeffer. lol
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Old 05-02-2014, 12:20 AM   #29
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

You can find pics of the modified green collar on a # of different tunics. If you have the Beaver SS camo book, there's a great tropical tunic with the modified collar.

The actual pic that started the thread is in the Europa Militaria books - a few DML figures were clearly done from that book. Also, a few of the HS's are modeled after the reenactors and a couple of the camo items as well. There are three good ones I have #17 - Wehrmacht Camo, and #18 & #6 are SS camo.

As far as the camo tunics, people once said they were rare, but the wealth of pics that have surface the last several years (I think) really calls it into question. Like Steve said, not common maybe, but definitely not rare.

There's a great pic if anyone would like it of a SS Spiess, wearing a pea-dot tunic, with Spiess rings, cufftitle, and full insignia, along with oakleaf pants. PM your email and I'll send it to you. Or maybe someone can post it.

Also, I don't recall seeing it, but Battlegears has an excellent planetree camo tunic. I have both the fall and spring ones. Top notch with functional buttons, as always from Auggie.
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Old 05-02-2014, 07:26 PM   #30
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

I have just finished sewing the green Toys City collar, onto the Toys City pea dot tunic.



Gary
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Old 05-03-2014, 01:29 AM   #31
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Why is this guy always yelling?
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:24 AM   #32
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Whitmann stole his bunny !
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:27 AM   #33
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Haha!
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:49 AM   #34
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerwerk View Post
Whitmann stole his bunny !
Hilarious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dti62 View Post
Gary,

That looks really great.
Great sewing job.
No, just well hidden as my sewing skills leave a lot to be desired.

Gary
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Old 05-03-2014, 05:30 PM   #35
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Looks great Gary! Looking forward to more pics.
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Old 05-03-2014, 05:40 PM   #36
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Quote:
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Whitmann stole his bunny !
Funny! Nice tie-in. Rim shot!
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:05 PM   #37
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

Just a quick update to the tunic, as i have now added the Toys City insignia to it.





Gary
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:58 AM   #38
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Now put on the shoulder boards and the medals and you're all set!
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Old 05-31-2014, 11:31 PM   #39
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

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Old 06-01-2014, 03:28 PM   #40
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

A quick note on the photos. Two came from Rygaard at the WAH forum. His photos have been used in at least one of the Schiffer SS camo books.

The first one is a Das Reich Spiess (Sgt. Major). Full pea-dot tunic with clear oakleaf pants. Full insignia including the spiess double tresse.

The next one is a Kama Division NCO candidate. Custom planetree tunic with full SS GJ insignia and Croat insignia as well. If you search for the other photos, you'll see the entire unit is wearing pea-dot or oakleaf camo pants.

The last one is another of Rygaard's that shows a Latvias with insignia on the pea-dot tunic, and again, full oakleaf pants.

But you know, this stuff it too rare for the 1/6th mfg's to do a full camo SS figure.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:35 PM   #41
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Also, he has collar litzen applied to the collar and he wears an officer cap with braided cord still attached. Lots of liberties taken by this senior nco. Great reference photo! Thanks for sharing OP!
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:18 PM   #42
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

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I've added a few more examples of pea dot uniforms with full insignia to that thread.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:22 PM   #43
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

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The next one is a Kama Division NCO candidate. Custom planetree tunic with full SS GJ insignia and Croat insignia as well. If you search for the other photos, you'll see the entire unit is wearing pea-dot or oakleaf camo pants.













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Old 06-01-2014, 08:01 PM   #44
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Hi,

Many thanks to all for the photos and the information.

Gary
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Old 07-14-2014, 07:21 PM   #45
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

I stumbled upon this pic. I didn't read every post but i didn't see it in the thread.

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Old 07-14-2014, 07:46 PM   #46
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

You wont, the question was for Pea dot the picture abouve and the pictures of the Muslims from SS Kama, none are wearing Pea dot, Sepp is wearing a custom jacket in Plain tree the chaps flanking him are in Italien the chap to the rear with the crusher cap is wearing OakLeaf and the other chap to the rear is hard to tell but may also be wearing Italien, the muslim in the camouflage jacket is wearing a custom Plain tree jacket the rest of the zug wering camouflage trousers are a mix of Oak Leaf and Blaired edge
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:56 PM   #47
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

No one is saying that the men in the karma division photo are wearing pea dot. It was referenced mainly due to the soldier in the custom tunic. Then its mentioned that the men may be in a combination of different camo.

Good thread all around, lots of interesting possibilities.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:18 PM   #48
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Re: M44 pea dot tunic and green collar?

Many officer candidates (like, possibly, this Das Reich Spiess) were allowed to wear officer cords on their Schirmütze. Pictures can be found to support almost anything. I said "almost" because I don't want my rivets counted!
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