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Old 01-04-2008, 10:19 AM   #1
Cover Fire!
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Jagdpanzer 4 crew

Hello, I am new to the forum Thank you for having me!

Could anyone give me any information or pictures on crew for an Jagdpanzer 4 L70 with an SS division in Normandy or the Falaise gap, Officialy I think the crew had red piping but many didn't seem to.
Also did the crew wear black or camoflage or a special uniform?

Did the Luftwaffe field divisions have any Jagdpanzer 4s?

Thank you.
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:48 AM   #2
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Welcome to the board!

I havn't got any pix - but I think the "rule" is that a panzerjäger is rated as a selfpropelled PAK and the crew therefore has red piping - while a jagdpanzer is indeed a panzer and the piping therefore is pink.

For an SS crew in Normandy I would go for more camo than not - but as crewmwmbers was shifted from wehicles as they was lost you certainly would also find some black uniform parts and some reed green.

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Old 01-04-2008, 03:01 PM   #3
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Let me first say, Welcome to the board! It's always nice to see another 1/6th enthusist join the fray.

As to your question...
Henrik is right. Red piping would be as per the regs, but panzer pink was also seen amongst many SP gun crews. I prefer camo, but late war almost any previously issued uniform could be seen.

There seems to be some speculation about why the mixing of colors from Panzer Pink to Red, etc... Gun Crews changing seems to be a popular explanation and one that I can agree with. I had read on another board that in some cases QM was issuing what they had access to at the time for replacement tankers. Not too sure about that one, but makes sense if there was a materiel shortage. Again, I have no concrete evidence as to why there was a mix of colors amongst tank crews, but we do know from many different photo refereneces that this was the case.

As for if the Luft had any Jagd's I could not answer that. There was a reference book put out some time ago that listed every type of tank ever made (By the Germans during the war) and the units that were issued them, the times they were issued to those units and the quantity, but I cannot remember the name of the book. Perhaps others on here can.

Here are some straight from the Box suggestions for your crew. I prefer to kitbash, but a good base fig may help.

DML Non-SS Jagdpanther Commander

DML SS SP Gun Commander (This one seems to fit closest what what you were looking for)

DML Luft SP Gunner

DML SS Stug Commander
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:09 PM   #4
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Thanks, but I have herd tell that there was a special sturmartillerie 'wrap'

www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H050958.html

was this issued to jadpanzer crew?

Thanks.
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Old 01-05-2008, 01:53 AM   #5
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I dissagree on the red.
Jagdpanzer IV were not used as assault artillery, it was used in tank hunter units and those would wear pink piping. Towed pak gun crews would also wear pink waffenfarbe.
Stugs, mainly Stug IV were used as tank hunters and as assault artillery, so on a Stug IV(or a III) I would agree it would be red or pink depending of the unit.

The wraps you mention were used by all armoured troops. Initially black then field gray and later in camo.
It it were me and I wanted to represent a SS Jagdpanzer IV crew in Normandy I would do a mix and match of uniforms, shirtsleeves, camo, field gray wrap...all these are readily available in the SS pattern.
Most crews were not all dressed exactly the same.

Also take into account that it was summer, so not too much layering.
There is also a lot of documentation of the actions in Normandy from he invasion to the actions around Falaise a couple of months later... and not that many SS units involved, so you could pick a particular unit and represent a nice "time and place" without a specific photograph.
Some Stugs were used as Panzer replacements, but I don't think JagdpanzerIV were used as tank replacements, so I would look for a PzJag Abt in one of the SS units in the front.

After saying all this, the L70 version, at leaast in my reference was produced from August 1944 to March of 1945, so it would not be a possibility for either Normandy or Falaise. They were first used in large numbers in the Ardennes Offensive in December of 1944. Thre is good reference that all the SS panzer jg abt of the SS Pz Divisions were using this JadgPzIV witht he longer L70 75mm gun.
For Normandy it would be a JagdpanzerIV with the shorter L48 gun, produced from January 1944. I believe the HJ had this type in their organic PzJg Abt 12. maybe GvB had some too, not sure...

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Old 01-05-2008, 02:29 AM   #6
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I agree with Eduardo/egonzinc on this, the Jadgpanzer IV would have been issued to Panzerjager units, and not sturmartllery/assault gun units. It was designed as a tank killer, not an artillery piece, and was issued to such units. The StuG's were designated assault guns, but due to shortages they found themselves in the anti tank roles as well, but they still maintained the red pipping of the assault gun units. The Jadgpanzers may have been used in the assault gun roles, and prob were, but most likely they maintained the waffenfarbe of the Panzerjagers. Also of most importance is production dates as Eduardo mentioned as well. Good call Ed


Welcome to the group, good question as German insignia is most tricky, and makes for great discussion. As far as uniforms, I'd go with a mix of black and camo as well as seasonal uniforms as well
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:07 AM   #7
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So after that would, i don't know, Aldo Wenning (www.dragon-models.com/html/70565p1.htm) or Baldur (changing the epaulettes from yellow) be ok or would other modifications need to be made?

Thanks
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Old 01-05-2008, 05:37 PM   #8
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I should have prefaced my reply with a timeframe, my mistake. I believe all Jagdpanzers were reclassified as self-propelled guns effective some time early 45. My bad, but these were used as replacement guns for SP groups as well as replacement guns for tank units. to be honest, as a replacement gun in an SP unit I cannot say what color piping would be used. The links above are the best I can do on the web. Much of my resource material is in paperback version.

By the way, not a wiki fan, but sometimes it is useful


Jagdpanzer Link 1

Jagdpanzer IV/70(A) was issued first in September of 1944. It was issued as regular tank to Panzer Abteilungs or as a replacement assault gun to Panzer and Stug Brigades. It was used as an anti-tank support vehicle for regular battle tanks. Most of the vehicles saw service on the Eastern Front. On April 10th of 1945, there were still 285 Jagdpanzer IV/70 in service with the German Army, 274 on the Eastern Front, 8 in Italy and 3 on the Western Front

In 1945 the Panzerjäger term was applied to all the Jagdpanzers and the earlier Panzerjägers were reclassified as self-propelled guns.
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:11 PM   #9
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One thing to keep in mind is that there were two patterns of panzerwrap, one used exclusively by the SS and a Heer/Wehrmacht version. (I'm sure someone can find one picture that shows a Heer guy wearing an SS pattern wrap). The SS pattern had a straight/vertical edged flap while the Heer version had a slanted flap.

It is my understanding that the SS had a totally different supply line than the Wehrmacht and this could procure stores from the Wehrmacht supplies, not the other way around. For this reason you see SS men wearing both versions. These panzerwraps are seen in both black and feldgrau as mentioned but are also seen in other materials such as HBT (both usually with a big front pocket) and camo. I've read mention of a lightweight denim wrap but haven't seen pictures.

Any of the figures mentioned would be fine, the insignia is really what denotes the branch (camo type too usually). An SS figure would need to have SS collar tabs and a sleeve eagle. A heer figure would need Heer tabs (panzer skulls were jawless) and a breast eagle.

Welcome to the confusing world of German uniforms and insignia...
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:42 AM   #10
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just to add my $.01 (i'm not qualified for a $.02 comment) as far as I can find based on the couple LWFD books i have picked up, they wouldn't have had any. The only thing they list in the self-propeled dept. was the stug III. now if you start looking at the HG division, then i wouldn't be qualified for even a $.01 comment
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:41 AM   #11
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On the uniform side .
For the field gray wrap pieces stick to DML Ernst Kruger and mix and match with camo pieces.
I would stay away from the Baldur HBT.
The Aldo Wenning pea dot camo wrap would be fine. If you are modelling LAH or HJ you could sprinkle in some Italian camo.

Here are some crews I have put together, just as an examplo fo what I mean by mix and match.

First one is my Grille LAH crew in Normandy, a PzJg crew could be very similar wih pink waffenfarbe.




Here a Das Reich PzJg Crew just before the Ardennes offensive. There are nicer peadot camo pieces now, these are from 3 years back.



Here a Heer Hertzer crew in the Ardennes



Here a Tiger Das Reich crew at Kursk (1943)



Here a Heer early Stug crew




Here a piece I like to sprinkle in once in a while, here shown in an early SS Stug crew. It is from Udo, and with breast eagle removed it can be Used for the SS



If you decide on Ardennes, then some layering of garments and camo parkhas would make sense.
For example(this is a tanker but you could substituye field gray wrap and head gear), you could use camo wrap over basic gray wrap



Or add a parkha which you could reverse from camo to white:



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Old 01-06-2008, 02:20 PM   #12
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Brilliant!! So I can add basically any german tank and a few infantry bits!

Really nice crew.

So what would the LWFD have had? I have got a german uniform book which labeled on a uniform that is exactly like Werner Bloch (DML) says somthing about a panzerjgr. section from the eastern front in 1944... what would this have been?

Thanks
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Old 01-06-2008, 02:55 PM   #13
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Ed, those are some fantastic looking figs. Great job indeed!
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:05 PM   #14
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Werner Bloch is a controversial figure.
The figure comes with a LW HBT that as far as I have been able to find did not exist.
A shame as it is a real nice piece...

As for other LW Field Divisions, they were FAR from front line, meaning well trained, well supplied, units.
I would be sirprised if any LW Division, except of course the HG had any JPzIVs...
If I were to put one together, I would again mix and match, LW Flioegerbluse, regulr tunic, Baldurs HBT with LW insignia and maybe throw in a camo piece like the one that came with Werner Bloch or the HG infantryman...
As before I would find a particular unit, then work on the time frame then work on the vrious pieces to be used.
I like the www.feldgrau.com web site for narrowing down a unit to be modelled.

But as mentioned before for a PzJgIV I would not consider a non HG LWFD.

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Old 01-08-2008, 05:48 PM   #15
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So just a recap, would Werner Bloch be suitable for the HG division?

and if he isn't for a jagdpanzer 4 what vehical is he ment to crew?

Thanks,
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:03 PM   #16
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Werner Bloch is listed as a self propelled gunner, Panzerjager-abteilung 5. LWFD

The box art shows a german standing on what appears to be a Stug III (I'm no armor expert, but that makes sence with what i can find regarding LWFD SP guns) and thats where mine will be going despite the uniform controversy.

The bottom line at least to me is, if you like him use him, if you want to be historically correct i'd pass on Werner, since it doesn't seem like the uniform he has existed.

As far as using him for the HG division (correct me if i'm wrong, i probably am) but i believe they used standard SS clothing with HG markings. ITPT makes a HG tanker 4-leaftoys has them for $29
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:47 AM   #17
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As mentioned above there is no reference that Werner's Bloch LW gray HBT wrap existed.
The camo piece in the Bloch kit can definitely be used as part of a HG crew or a LWFD crew.
But again outside of HG I doubt there would be a PzJgIV in a LW FD which generally got less than the best equipment.

I have looked, VERY HARD, for references on the LW blue/gray HBT wrap that comes with the DML Bloch figure and have found NOTHING.
So for me at least it is NOT an accurate piece a fantasy piece that did not exist.

HG used Heer cut wraps and there are some images of them using some SS camo smocks but they in general did not use SS bits.
The HG insingnia had major changes during the war years...so depending on the time frame the insignia will be very different.

I have a bunch of the Bloch wraps and trousers and will eventually try to convert them to field gray... has any one done it with RIT dyes?
Any successfull formula you could share?
TIA
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:59 PM   #18
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Oh God, the horror, the horror...

I bought a couple of the Werner Bloch HBT sets for like $3 a long while back. The funky blue was worse than I had expected. I soaked them in a 2:1 water/bleach solution that was stronger than I normally use. Maybe even 1:1. I'm pretty sure this HBT is some synthetic as it barely did anything at all other than change the color of the thread. It looked like it was working until I rinsed and dried them where they returned close to their original color. At this point I said "what the hell" and threw them in a dye bath of straight RIT dark green and this is what it came out as:

Not exactly the best color but better in my eyes. (I know the 222 commander has an SS cap but that's been fixed since the pic was taken). They now look like brand new 'never seen the light of day' summer issue HBTs. I ended up printing new Heer breast eagles and cut them out a little oversized to mask the Luftwaffe eagles. Anyway, good luck with that!
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:02 PM   #19
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HitlerJugend was the only SS division to repsond to Normandy at the onset and mostly around Caen. I can check the order of battle but I don't think they had any Jagdpanzer IVs L70s. They did for the Ardennes. Most 12th SS soldiers and tank crews hardly wore any insignia at all. Many wore just Italian or peadot camo with a sleeve eagle.
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:34 PM   #20
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There were NO L70 variants of Jadgpanzer IV in June 1944 Normandy, only the L48 short-barreled versions would have been present... The L70 was introduced late summer/early fall 1944 from all the reference materials I've read... This is one of the factors that kept me from changing the L48 model I have as it's useful for more timeline scenarios then the L70...
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Old 01-12-2008, 07:10 AM   #21
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So out of interest, would a stug crew have red piping?

thanks
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:54 PM   #22
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According to "Field Uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces in World War 2" by Mike Pruett and Bob Edwards:

Armored Artillery Regiments (Wespe, Hummel) and Assault Artillery (Stuh 42, Stug III) wore bright red piping. Field grey, green denim (HBTs?), and black panzer uniforms were all worn.

The Artillerie-Lehr Regiment wore black panzer unis with collar and collar tabs piped in rose pink and the shoulder straps and boards in bright red.

You just about have to pick a regiment or division and then research to see what they wore to be somewhat accurate.

Remember, the book I mentioned is ONLY on the Heer panzer forces, not SS.
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