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Old 06-03-2014, 07:45 PM   #1
johkaz
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MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

I am in the process of putting together a figure, of a German soldier firing an MG42 from the hip. And in the process of my research i found this video on YouTube, of someone doing just that. But i am curious about the ammunition belt, as i cannot see it in the video. So i am presuming that it is just hanging down from the gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B57dW3A-DT0



But with my figure i want the ammunition belt, hanging over the arm as shown above. But my question is, in real life would the angle of the second bullet on the belt, as well as the lay of the belt on the arm cause any feed problems? As i have never fired anything like this, so i am wondering if anyone here has tried something like this?

I have been looking at other MG42 videos, and the rate of fire is scary, so i am wondering if the pose is possible? I would have the belt hanging down from the gun, but i am having problems getting the DiD metal belt, to stay in position in the Toys City MG42 model.

Gary
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:06 PM   #2
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Gary,

In reality the rounds are closer together so the MG42 ammo belt is less flexible:



Although your ammo-belt is a good representation, the proportions are off, which is understandable as not everything can be exactly scaled down.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:24 PM   #3
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

Many thanks for the reply and the image, as this does help me understand about the ammunition belt.

Gary
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:43 PM   #4
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

In reality firing an MG42 from the hip was very possible though mainly done with the drum mag, below are some modern films the first will be the most interesting showing Bundeswere soldaten shooting with MG3 which apart from firing 7.62mm rounds and a different rear sight is the same weapon still in use, notice the holding of the dipod to steady the weapon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAxkvctd5Ps
Not German
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32b51Hpsfmc
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:59 PM   #5
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

The feedtray plays a very large role in the firing of belt fed machineguns. The 1/6 mg42 doesnt quite have the feedtray that the actual weapon does. Also, as pointed out, the 1/6 ammunition differs from live ammunition. Too much flex in the belt can actually create a stoppage. In addition, one of the reaction drills to a runaway gun, an mg that wont stop firing when you release trigger, is to twist the belt to break the ammunition feed or to cause a jam. Firing from the hip isnt usually taught as it is highly inaccurate but it is possible. Ammunition that just hangs from the gun can also cause a stoppage, that is why you usually see someone hanging it over their arm. Not to say that you cant fire the weapon with a belt hanging but you increase the chance of the weapon jamming. I hope this helps.

I say go with it as it would look pretty cool.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:43 PM   #6
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

The_Dutchman

Would WW2 German ammunition have the same darker cartridge case like in your picture? And if i may ask what would a tracer bullet look like?

rivetcounter

Many thanks for the links as they are very interesting, and they have explained a lot to me. I especially like the soldier as if he is on a Sunday stroll at 2.36 in link 1, while at the same time firing down range. Also the soldier holding the bipod at 1.40 & 2.59, what must that be doing to his hearing.
As for the soldiers at 1.38 & 2.19 in the second link, heck they must make them tough where they come from.

viaad

Also many thanks for the information, as i have learned a lot from your post. Especially with the runaway gun, as i always thought that when you let go of the trigger, everything stopped. This just shows how much i know, and i am glad that i asked.

Gary
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Last edited by johkaz; 06-03-2014 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:00 PM   #7
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

The Bundeswere train troops to use the MG3 in every possible scenario, they also spend a lot of time on the firing range, walking and firing from the hip is done in Afghanistan to clear poppy fields whilst advancing.

Runaway gun training involves the number 2 on the gun holding the hand and trigger of the gunner so that the weapon won’t stop firing the gunner then with his left hand twists the belt to either jam the weapon or break the belt, with modern disintegrating ammo belts breaking them is quite simple, when the MG3 uses none disintegrating belts this is a little harder though not impossible.

It will be interesting to see what you do
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:02 PM   #8
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

the MG42 ammunition shown with the dark casings is late war steel casings as brass became short in supply steel was used more though brass casings would still be used
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:17 PM   #9
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

The figure i am slowly working on is this one.



Gary
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:23 PM   #10
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rivetcounter View Post
The Bundeswere train troops to use the MG3 in every possible scenario, they also spend a lot of time on the firing range, walking and firing from the hip is done in Afghanistan to clear poppy fields whilst advancing.

Runaway gun training involves the number 2 on the gun holding the hand and trigger of the gunner so that the weapon won’t stop firing the gunner then with his left hand twists the belt to either jam the weapon or break the belt, with modern disintegrating ammo belts breaking them is quite simple, when the MG3 uses none disintegrating belts this is a little harder though not impossible.

It will be interesting to see what you do
I'm not sure what training brought about what you speak of. It should be the assistant gunner first who twists the belt and te gunner next if no one is assiting him. The gunner should never release the pistol grip.

I have no recollection about teachings regarding firing from the hip to clear poppy fields. That doesn't make sense. You clear poppy fields with chemicals and machinery. At least that's what I used in afg. Shooting down a field would take a million rounds or more.
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Last edited by viaad; 06-04-2014 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Corrected my crappy spelling!
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Old 06-04-2014, 03:13 AM   #11
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

WWII 8mm(7.92) had brass casings and steel bullet points. There is no difference between mg rounds and k98 rifle rounds
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:51 AM   #12
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Gary,


I like the position of the gun, belt, and stance of this figure. Looks good and natural to me.


-joe
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:03 PM   #13
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Quote:
Originally Posted by viaad View Post
Ammunition that just hangs from the gun can also cause a stoppage, that is why you usually see someone hanging it over their arm. Not to say that you cant fire the weapon with a belt hanging but you increase the chance of the weapon jamming.
Draping the belt over your arm not only prevents the belt from getting twisted, but also takes most of the weight of the belt off of the feed mechanism. MG feed mechanisms can develop issues when forced to try to lift the entire weight of a free-hanging belt of ammunition (up to 15+ pounds) just to feed the next round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viaad View Post
I have no recollection about teachings regarding friend from the hop to clear poppy fields. That doesn't make sense. You clear poppy fields with chemicals and machinery. At least that's what I used in afg. Shooting down a field would take a million rounds or more.
I believe he means "clear" in the military sense, as in to remove the enemy forces from an area. Not "clear" in the farming sense, as in cut down all the plants.

Last edited by RogueJK; 06-04-2014 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:34 PM   #14
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Ahhh... thats makes sense.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:47 PM   #15
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

Many thanks for all of the replies, as they have all been very helpful, and i have learned a lot from them. The pose of the figure is mainly based on the YouTube link in my first post, where the re-enactor is firing the MG42. And the way he changes his standing position, so that he can absorb the weapon's recoil better.

I put the ammo belt over the arm, mainly because as i said before of the weight of the DiD item, which would not stay clamped in the Toys City gun. Which then made me think could this be done in real life, or would the figure look like something out of a hollywood film? So that is why i asked here about the ammo belt, as there are a lot more knowledgeable people than me here who may have handled weapons like this.

Gary
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:51 PM   #16
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

the german army (bundeswehr) use the MG3 a modified MG42. here you can see some soldiers firing the MG3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqluK9_8Aco

here you can see put ammo belt over his shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1tHSWgT41c

Last edited by kelly; 06-04-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:14 PM   #17
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Here is some interesting information on 7.92mm ammunition there are also pictures of steel cased ammunition made in 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9757mm_Mauser
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:39 PM   #18
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

There is some very interesting information in the link to the 7.92 bullets. Especially the part about the "observation" bullet.

B-Geschoß - (Beobachtung) ("observation") — The German Luftwaffe 10.85 grams (167.4 gr) B (Beobachtung—"observation") HE incendiary ball bullets contained phosphorus and "had a pellet in it which exploded on contact with any target, however frail". The B ball bullet was like any other high-explosive or incendiary bullet, illegal for anti-personnel use according to the Hague Conventions. It featured a higher muzzle velocity than standard ammunition due to a more powerful smokeless powder charge. These rounds were designated as V-patronen, with 'V' being short for improved (German: verbessert). "The Germans maintained that it was used mainly for observation and range-finding, but observers report having seen them in rifle clips and machine gun belts".The regular German infantry units were not allowed to use this round; however German snipers sometimes used this high velocity round to gain an extra 100 m (110 yards) effective range and cause horrendous wounds.

Gary
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:43 PM   #19
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Ah, the "assault position" this topic is greatly debated in military circles. I am a personal believer that hip fire whether from a mg or rifle and whether the target is 5m or 500m away is almost pointless. The only circumstance that I could see a GPMG (m240 or mg-42) being fired from the hip is reacting to contact from an extremely and I mean extremely close range. If your weapons squad or gun team is being used properly then this should not even come into the equation. Also there is a reason why gunners are issued handguns.


And yes having free hanging rounds that are not supported can and will induce feed malfunctions. Also feed angle of the rounds can and will cause malfunctions depending on the weapon (usually not a problem with the PKM). That's why one of the main jobs of the AG is to help feed rounds into the gun. This is also why we have nut sacks. The Germans had the 75 round drum and we have 60 round unstacks for our M240. Back in the old days or if you didn't have nutsacks, SOP was to rip a 50 belt off and have it wrapped once around the gun in order to make movement. obviously this is not optimal as the rounds could get dirty or unseat out of the belt inducing a malfunction.




If I was doing a figure that was firing from the hip I would put the 75 round drum on the weapon. It could be done as you have pictured but that would have been the exception not the rule.




clearing poppy fields. Well I am a firm believer that the "mad minute" rule is bullshit in 99.9% of circumstances. the best way to clear any objective is with effective accurate fire. most of the time the Taliban don't fight from the poppy fields but from around them in compounds. Now what the poppy fields are known for is a shit ton of devices waiting to fuck up your element. As Alfonso said we used chemicals, dozers/engineers to clear poopy fields. but most of the time is your mission is not specifically drug eradication ( which most of the time it is not, because the brilliant leadership is too worried about hurting some Taliban enabler/facilitator feelings)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
Draping the belt over your arm not only prevents the belt from getting twisted, but also takes most of the weight of the belt off of the feed mechanism. MG feed mechanisms can develop issues when forced to try to lift the entire weight of a free-hanging belt of ammunition (up to 15+ pounds) just to feed the next round.



I believe he means "clear" in the military sense, as in to remove the enemy forces from an area. Not "clear" in the farming sense, as in cut down all the plants.
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:13 AM   #20
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Nice figure I think you have the pose about right. I have no experience with the MG-42 but I've fired M-14's on full auto, you really need to lean forward, get most of your weight on your front foot and have your back foot planted. The weapon will push you back once it starts to firing and you really need to be ready for that.
I suspect that an MG-42 would be about the same.
The MG-42 is heavier but the rate of fire is much higher.
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:28 PM   #21
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

This was not a recommended way to fire this weapon. However, your figure would look good in a movie (where reality doesn't exist), and it would be easier to fire blanks!
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:22 PM   #22
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Re: MG42 and belt feed question

Hi,

Many thanks for all of the replies and the detailed information..
Especially with the pose, as it confirms the video at the start of this topic.

Gary
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