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12th SS Hitlerjugend question

C

covert-

Mortarman
Hi again,

First, let me say thanks for answering my last question regarding a panzerjager and shoulderboard piping - very informative and helpful. Thanks!

Hopefully you can help me with another question I have.

I'm doing a small diorama of an MG42 team, set in June/July 1944. The diorama will have a rottenfuhrer as the gunner, and a shutze as the second (feeding ammo into the MG42).

My knowledge of the 12th SS is better than nothing but by no means am I an expert on them. Here is the 2-parted question I have:

- From what I have read and heard, the junior enlisted ranks were kids from the HJ. The NCOs and officers were mainly from other SS units (such as the 1st SS LAH), heer, and HJ-involved people. I've read that since these SS members who were in other units joined the 12th SS, they continued to wear their original SS unit cuff title. Is this the case? Did they change their cuff titles to the 12th SS when they came over? What would be more correct for a summer 1944 piece with the rottenfuhrer - using an HJ cuff title or another (I would go with an LAH cuff title instead)? The headsculpts on the figures are drastically different - the shutze has a very young-looking face that fits someone who would be 17-18 (since all junior ranks for the most part were drawn from kids born in 1926), and the rottenfuhrer looks to be older (mid-late 20s).

- Did the 12th SS troops (like the ones in my planned diorama) use white piping on their shoulder boards for infantry, or would they have pink shoulder boards for armor infantry?

Oh, and one other thing, and this may seem like a very basic question (please forgive me, my knowledge of the SS and uniform-type things is extremely limited) - the figures I've got will be using a mix of pea dot, plane tree and oak leaf camo (all of the spring variety). Did this type of mix 'n match occur? Would these types of camo have been mixed? Were all these camo patterns around in the summer of '44?

Thanks again! I really do appreciate it.
 
At least i can answer your last question; almost any camo combination was used in the end of the war. You can't go wrong. :wink:

For the cuff titles I guess that they changed their cuff titles to HJ ones, that seems most reasonable. Someone else probably knows better.
 
The cuff titles should be HJ since that was the unit they were serving with. As far as I know, most men served in different units as the war went by - if they left their unit because of wounds, illness, NCO training, special training etc, they could very well end up somewhere else. THat goes for any armed service I might add.

Armoured infantry had green piping - I can't say if the WSS followed the same routines as the Heer however. I had a website dedicated to this somewhere - I'll see if I can find it again.

And Lost Records is right - any type of camo was used - I have seen SS men with the Heer splinter pattern too.
 
This website can help
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/austria/673/waffen_ss/camm_smok/camo_uni.htm

On the camo issue that is, but as mentioned before, in late war battlefronts the SS used a mix of different camos, as long as you don't go snow ;).

Late war HJ:
contemplate.jpg



And normally the MG gunner was an NCO I believe. (although there are plenty of pictures where this isn't the case)
 
justin_g";p="51783 said:
Don't forget that the 12.SS(and 1.SS) also used alot of Italian camo in Normandy.
Click to expand...

Really?

Was this due to shortage or because they came from Italy?
(I don't know wether they served in Italy or not though so I could be very wrong on that :P)
 
justin_g";p="51783 said:
Don't forget that the 12.SS(and 1.SS) also used alot of Italian camo in Normandy.
Click to expand...

I've always thought this was a misconception, further propegated by Dragon and other companies making way too much product when there is little proof to back it up.

In just about every 12th SS pic I've seen, it's always SS camo. In fact, I can't recall a single picture where SS troops are wearing Italian camo. Do you have any reference pics of this?

As a sidenote, my kitbashed 12th SS guys are almost ready for pictures. Just need the diorama and a camo smock for the gunner and I'm good go go! :D
 
Couple of things I've learned looking up the same questions:

1) The HJ cuffband was not awarded until after Normandy. Maybe even after the Falaise pocket (Autumn 44). Maybe to honor/recognize the veterans from the invasion (or, the few hundred who weren't wiped out).

2) Go to Axis History Forum.com and search under terms like Italian camo and 12th SS and Hitler Jungend - you'll see quite a few pics of Italian camo being used. Esp. pics from Norey-En-Bessin - it's the pics that Ron V based his artwork, and consequently, Dragon's Marcus (HJ MG42 gunner) off of.

Don't know how much it was used, but it can be found on high ranking officers (Max Wunsche for example) on down to enlisted men.

Here's a link I have saved from one of my searches:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...asc&highlight=italian+camouflage+pics&start=0

Some pics are bad, but you can see clearly the HJ machine gunner that Ron V used. These pics are in several books as well, including Kurt Panzer Meyer's, Osprey's, Concords (which Ron V often helps with), etc. - all clearly show the Italian camo pattern.

Love to see what Patrick may have in his collection! :-P
 
For the MG team with the gunner in italian caverall, were taken in Norrey en Bessin.

There is many pics of the 12° HJ with italian stuff. (even trucks).
 
The 12th SS never served on the Italian Front. The 1st SS was stationed in Northern Italy (the Po Valley region) in the late summer of '43 for relief and gaurd duty where they saw some sporadic actions against partisans. The unit also disarmed Italian units after the armistice of 8 Sept. After which the division saw intense action against Italian communist and liberalist partisans. The unit was ordered back to Russia in Novemeber of that year never seeing action against the Allies.
 
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